Research needed to better understand interface of brain and soul

I broke off my connection to the Vedanta discussion list after its manager asked that we show more respect for folks who object rigidly and dogmatically (with ideological stereotypes and personal attacks on all scientists and Westerners) to concepts like objective reality and Darwin. But some of the same folks do cc me at times on a few things. One of them cc'ed me today on the issue of brain waves versus samadhi, which is a good starting point... to a serious challenge. I replied:

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Thank you, ...,  for cc'ing me on a discussion which tries to combine several important topics.

You being by asking what URM has to do with samadhi. Since I do not know what "URM" means here, I did a quick google. The hits were dominated by "Underrepresented Minorities."

We never used that acronym when I was at NSF; instead we used "WMD" (which can mean women, minorities or disabled, or weapons of mass destruction). It seems that "URM" and "WMD" are like "consciousness;" if one insists they are just one thing, the same thing, one can get into trouble. 

By the way, I am also cc'ing Oded Maimon, who was a plenary speaker at the meeting in Nepal last year. Perhaps I would cc Lotfi Zadeh, if he were alive. These discussions give many, many examples where we need to be conscious of the fuzzy nature of the words we use, in order to avoid misunderstanding. It is not a small matter in these discussions. 

To better understand what you are saying, I next did a google on "URM brain." The result was interesting, including a paper I should probably read:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230763781_Understanding_How_the_Brain_Ensures_Its_Energy_Supply

There has been a recent DARPA funding initiative to try to better understand how the brain minimizes its energy cost, with hopes of reducing energy cost in computers by learning lessons from the brain. Is that what you were reacting to?

I have friends who are very serious BOTH about understanding energy efficiency in the brain, AND about correlations between "brain waves" (EEG and related measurements) and meditative states. These are both very worthwhile topics where we all have a lot to learn, if we approach it as an exercise in curiosity and learning new things. I don't see that much direct connection between the two topics right now. The second topic is quite interesting -- and maybe even important to the real calling of assisting human development. Perhaps we should discuss it more. 

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 7:16 AM, .... wrote:

URM makes quantitative predictions of Samadhi state as well all other meditative states (brain waves) you describe -

Samaadhi and all other meditative states are not the brain waves in itself.

Certainly you are right about this. 

You are right to make distinction between "samadhi" and  "brain waves," even though both terms have fuzzy boundaries. 

I tend to think of "brain waves" as EEG recordings, or recordings of electromagnetism emanating from the brain. (I do not claim that this is "the right definition," since no such thing exists. It is just a common language word. It would be nice if you recall the philosopher Ayers, but let me not distract with that.)

Thus I would actually make a THREE-FOLD distinction here:

(1) States of interface between brain and "soul" such as samadhi and others;

(2) Measured or measurable "brain Waves" (EEG or MRI or ECOG or electrode recording or the like);

(3) Actual states of the electrical or electromagnetic inputs and outputs of all the neurons of the brain.

You and I certain agree that "soul" comprises something much bigger than the electromagnetic state of the brain (or even its QED state, which is somewhat larger, including the positions and attributes of all the electrons, protons, neutrons and electromagnetic fields of the brain). For me, this is not a philosophical assumption, but a very strong conclusion based on what we know about QED and about the most basic, well-verified "siddhis" like remote viewing. That conclusion implies that it would be a gross category error to assume that states (1) are a subset of states (2) or (3).

Samaadhi states are the states of consciousness as higher Vs our wakeful conscious states. It could be that as higher levels of conscious states are achieved, and that is what is the Samaadhi states. its effect is created on the physical brain in form of e.m waves of altered wavelengths. But I am doubtful of this.

Here I must try to make a clarification, and hope you forgive me for doing so. It is an important point; without clarification, one can not make real progress in this area. 

As we sit here typing words into keyboards, it is our brain which is controlling our fingers as we type. The brain has NO SANE BASIS WHATSOEVER for assuming that sidhis or samadhi exist at all, UNLESS the soul somehow leaves some kind of trace 

on the brain. For this and other reasons, it makes great sense to try to understand what patterns the soul may cause to appear in the brain, under many different states of type (1). In my view, this is a very promising area for research. It is not ALL of life or ALL of what we need to study, but it is one of the positive threads which should be better supported on many levels.

A few weeks ago, my wife led me on a three-mile walk to a local library, just to benefit my health (and to talk). They were selling a silly old paperback novel, the Rowan, by Ann McCaffrey. For 25 cents, I bought it, and used it to relax. 

It began with an oversimplified but important idea: how a better understanding of the correlations between brain waves and states (1) could improve our ability to TEACH and MASTER states (1), which really could be important to the future of humanity. Given how desperate the situation of humanity is today (as many things become ever more dangerous), we really should not throw away any such positive hope. Those who say we should not give in to despair about the future of humanity because "God will save us" should ask what we should do to give God and soul a better chance to really manifest on this planet; murderous folks who claim to speak for God without even trying to listen certainly are part of the problem, not part of the solution. 

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This endeavor does not require waiting for a well-justified mathematical theory of the physics of the soul. (It is good that the political authorities in Scythia did not order that the Iron Age should be postponed until the solid state physics of ferroic materials was established. Use of electrical brain stimulation SHOULD be held back until people have a better understanding of brains and societies, but even there it is not about waiting for physics.) 

It is a much more practical, empirical matter. Instead of starting from metaphysics, we need to start by getting more workable, practical maps of the great diversity of states (1), as we find them in ordinary life (both trained and untrained, selected and raw), and connecting them with the great diversity of brain wave states. Dean Radin's work is one important window into the diversity of states (1) . Likewise, the work of his colleagues, as in the great collection "Consciousness" by Goleman which I have recommended again and again to people discussing that subject. And yes, there are other sources. At this moment, I am reminded of the very beautiful colorful paperback ..

https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Minds-Eye-Techniques-Visualization/dp/0394731131/

(Hey, buy it now, used for $1.25!!)

From the theory point of view, I have previously mentioned the idea that operating near the "edge of chaos", as in hypnagogic states (what reminded me of the book) fits what we would expect from REAL physics about the soul-brain interface much better than the popular quantum category errors. Thus to induce interesting states of type (1), one very important new tool to include in  the protocols is something discussed by MIT people at Tucson conference:

,http://www.iflscience.com/technology/there-is-a-machine-that-can-literally-shape-the-content-of-your-dreams/  

A few days ago, a wandering humble Sikh mystic suggested that I look into  Vipassana, https://tricycle.org/magazine/vipassana-meditation/. On the Vedanta list, there was almost no follow-on interest when I raised the issue of breathing exercises (one of many tools relevant to 1), and the simple humble ($10) incentive spirometer which can assist them, but they also might have a place in future experiments. Breathing is important even to empirical studies of rats, let alone humans. And there is also very practical empirical work by Pete Sanders of Sedona, which might help in preparing useful experiments with high variance in the data. (I disagree with his physics as much as I disagree with Vinod's, but that is not relevant to these experiments.)

Of course, I do not expect us to have much access to "perfect samadhi" in initial experiments, but the more we learn from states along the path, the better our chances of going further in the future, not only in experiments but in our lives.

My paper in Neural Networks 2012 also gives some thoughts about more effective training of the mind, grounded both in mathematics and in what I have learned from world literature on that. 

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Best of luck,

   Paul